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	<title>Comments on: Physics of GPS relativistic time delay</title>
	<atom:link href="http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/physics-of-gps-relativistic-time-delay/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/physics-of-gps-relativistic-time-delay/</link>
	<description>Random thoughts from a mathematician/physicist</description>
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		<item>
		<title>By: GPS Time - Science Forums</title>
		<link>http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/physics-of-gps-relativistic-time-delay/#comment-82</link>
		<dc:creator>GPS Time - Science Forums</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 20:09:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/?p=19#comment-82</guid>
		<description>[...]  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/physics-of-gps-relativistic-time-delay/#comment-30</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/?p=19#comment-30</guid>
		<description>@Andy:  The relevant value is the speed — the direction doesn&#039;t come into play.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Andy:  The relevant value is the speed — the direction doesn&#8217;t come into play.</p>
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		<title>By: satellite ty</title>
		<link>http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/physics-of-gps-relativistic-time-delay/#comment-25</link>
		<dc:creator>satellite ty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 03:05:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/?p=19#comment-25</guid>
		<description>[...] than you may have wanted to know about how a global positioning satellite&#039;s onboard clock works.http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/physics-of-gps-relativistic-time-delay/HYDERABAD &amp;quotREAL&amp;quotTY BITES: Satellite Maps For Property BuyersThe on-line real estate agency, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] than you may have wanted to know about how a global positioning satellite&#8217;s onboard clock works.http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/physics-of-gps-relativistic-time-delay/HYDERABAD &#38;quotREAL&#38;quotTY BITES: Satellite Maps For Property BuyersThe on-line real estate agency, [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/physics-of-gps-relativistic-time-delay/#comment-15</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 02:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/?p=19#comment-15</guid>
		<description>Neat post.

I&#039;m confused about the special relativity part.  Wouldn&#039;t the *orbiting* satellite be in a constantly accelerating reference frame, and not in constant linear motion away from / towards an observer?

Is it possible for the special relativistic effects to even accumulate; wouldn&#039;t it &quot;un-do&quot; the effects on the second half of an orbit?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neat post.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m confused about the special relativity part.  Wouldn&#8217;t the *orbiting* satellite be in a constantly accelerating reference frame, and not in constant linear motion away from / towards an observer?</p>
<p>Is it possible for the special relativistic effects to even accumulate; wouldn&#8217;t it &#8220;un-do&#8221; the effects on the second half of an orbit?</p>
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		<title>By: Porges</title>
		<link>http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/physics-of-gps-relativistic-time-delay/#comment-13</link>
		<dc:creator>Porges</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 12:56:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/?p=19#comment-13</guid>
		<description>flamendialis, there is a neat computer program which does this. It’s called lightspeed, and you can find it here:
http://lightspeed.sourceforge.net/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>flamendialis, there is a neat computer program which does this. It’s called lightspeed, and you can find it here:<br />
<a href="http://lightspeed.sourceforge.net/" rel="nofollow">http://lightspeed.sourceforge.net/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/physics-of-gps-relativistic-time-delay/#comment-12</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2008 15:38:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/?p=19#comment-12</guid>
		<description>Hi Matt and CCPhysicist,

Thanks for posting. Indeed, the resolution power of the GPS satellites depends on the precision of clocks. It is my understanding that, roughly speaking, precision to 1 nanosecond translates to about a foot of precision (the speed of light is very close to one foot per nanosecond). So to be off 38 microseconds per day amounts to the satellites being off by about 38,000 feet per day, or just over 7 miles! The more and more accurate we make our clocks, the more and more accurate GPS systems can become.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Matt and CCPhysicist,</p>
<p>Thanks for posting. Indeed, the resolution power of the GPS satellites depends on the precision of clocks. It is my understanding that, roughly speaking, precision to 1 nanosecond translates to about a foot of precision (the speed of light is very close to one foot per nanosecond). So to be off 38 microseconds per day amounts to the satellites being off by about 38,000 feet per day, or just over 7 miles! The more and more accurate we make our clocks, the more and more accurate GPS systems can become.</p>
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		<title>By: CCPhysicist</title>
		<link>http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/physics-of-gps-relativistic-time-delay/#comment-11</link>
		<dc:creator>CCPhysicist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:14:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/?p=19#comment-11</guid>
		<description>Oh, yes, the Relativity FAQ includes a category on experimental tests that has a section for &quot;twin&quot; experiments: 

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/experiments.html#Twin_paradox</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, yes, the Relativity FAQ includes a category on experimental tests that has a section for &#8220;twin&#8221; experiments: </p>
<p><a href="http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/experiments.html#Twin_paradox" rel="nofollow">http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/experiments.html#Twin_paradox</a></p>
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		<title>By: CCPhysicist</title>
		<link>http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/physics-of-gps-relativistic-time-delay/#comment-10</link>
		<dc:creator>CCPhysicist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:10:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/?p=19#comment-10</guid>
		<description>A hat tip to Chad at Uncertain Principles for linking to this article.  I don&#039;t get over here very often.  Very nice article, but let&#039;s separate theory and experiment. 

The size of the effect is irrelevant to whether this is a &quot;good&quot; example of the effect of both SR time dilation and the GR correction term, both separately and together.  What makes it &quot;good&quot; is that both the space and ground based clocks are exceptionally accurate and stable so the signal (38 micro s) is tested to very high precision.  An error of that scale corresponds to some huge position error on earth, so it had better be right. 

As I understand it, the first GPS satellite could be switched between the desired ground frequency and the frequency required for it to work if relativity was correct.  (Apparently, as the story goes, there were some unconvinced folks in the Air Force.)  It did, and this makes it an actual twin experiment that, because the speed is so much higher than in the cases studied using aircraft, does show the effect for those &quot;twin&quot; clocks very clearly.  

Of course, Dr. Pion knows all about the importance of time dilation when trying to transport a pion from its production area, through a target, and on through a magnetic spectrometer.  Experiments with pions and muons were the first tests of the time predictions of SR.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A hat tip to Chad at Uncertain Principles for linking to this article.  I don&#8217;t get over here very often.  Very nice article, but let&#8217;s separate theory and experiment. </p>
<p>The size of the effect is irrelevant to whether this is a &#8220;good&#8221; example of the effect of both SR time dilation and the GR correction term, both separately and together.  What makes it &#8220;good&#8221; is that both the space and ground based clocks are exceptionally accurate and stable so the signal (38 micro s) is tested to very high precision.  An error of that scale corresponds to some huge position error on earth, so it had better be right. </p>
<p>As I understand it, the first GPS satellite could be switched between the desired ground frequency and the frequency required for it to work if relativity was correct.  (Apparently, as the story goes, there were some unconvinced folks in the Air Force.)  It did, and this makes it an actual twin experiment that, because the speed is so much higher than in the cases studied using aircraft, does show the effect for those &#8220;twin&#8221; clocks very clearly.  </p>
<p>Of course, Dr. Pion knows all about the importance of time dilation when trying to transport a pion from its production area, through a target, and on through a magnetic spectrometer.  Experiments with pions and muons were the first tests of the time predictions of SR.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/physics-of-gps-relativistic-time-delay/#comment-9</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 23:15:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/?p=19#comment-9</guid>
		<description>Found this post from Dr. Pion&#039;s site.  As a physics student and an occasional geocacher, this is quite a cool thing to read about!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Found this post from Dr. Pion&#8217;s site.  As a physics student and an occasional geocacher, this is quite a cool thing to read about!</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/physics-of-gps-relativistic-time-delay/#comment-7</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 23:40:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/?p=19#comment-7</guid>
		<description>Hi again,

Thanks for the reply.

Relativity does very strange things. It had brought to my attention that spheres remain spheres under the transformation!

In response to your question, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.adamauton.com/warp/index.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; may be something like what you&#039;re looking for. It&#039;s free, there are lots of objects to be imported, and you can make your own shapes from external programs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi again,</p>
<p>Thanks for the reply.</p>
<p>Relativity does very strange things. It had brought to my attention that spheres remain spheres under the transformation!</p>
<p>In response to your question, <a href="http://www.adamauton.com/warp/index.html" rel="nofollow">this</a> may be something like what you&#8217;re looking for. It&#8217;s free, there are lots of objects to be imported, and you can make your own shapes from external programs.</p>
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